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Kannova Venterra [C2] (Finished)

Discover what other players are working on.

Will you try using these, and how?

I intend to try a playthrough with isolated regular breed.
0
No votes
I intend to try a playthrough with isolated altered metabolism breed.
1
20%
I intend to try adding the Regular Breed to my Canny Norns world.
1
20%
I intend to try adding the Altered Breed to my Canny Norns world.
2
40%
I intend to try adding the Regular Breed to my Nova Subterra Norns world.
0
No votes
I intend to try adding the Altered Breed to my Nova Subterra Norns world.
0
No votes
I think I already found my favorite breed and don't need innovations, so no.
0
No votes
I don't play Creatures 2 enough to try using those.
1
20%
I don't like something about the regular breed concept/execution, so no.
0
No votes
I don't like something about the altered breed concept/execution, so no.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 5

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Venithil
Busy Bee
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:25 am
Country: Europe
Currently Playing: C2
Favorite Species: Norn

Kannova Venterra [C2] (Finished)

Postby Venithil » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:47 am

Greetings again!
After getting into Creatures 2 I obviously encountered the same problems as everyone, and eventually my patience to the original breeds has run out. Thankfully, of course, not only did I encounter C-Rex Norn Nebula blog before, I was reminded of it here.

This has lead to me creating a blog-like documentation of my attempts with the three 'core' breeds of supposedly smarter norns (I may start posting that documentation on here later, if anyone is interested). However, I immediately got distracted by another aspect. If you're only interested in the breed itself, please skip the box below:


[+] On my N.S. experiences
When I hatched my first norn for that group, a Nova Subterra female named Aine, I totally got attached to her! She was everything I hoped a Norn could be and I had an immense amount of fun raising and playing with her and there's just one issue...
She never bred.

In fact, my entire 4 people generation I of Nova Subterras never bred. There was a single kisspop during the entire 3+ hours it took 3 of them to reach elderly age and lose fertility, and I now know how that kisspop was obtained.

This has led to me testing around and while Subterras are, indeed, smart and good at surviving and giving each other space (in the first case, mostly if taught), it seems they only breed when virtually forced to and taught by the player actively inside of a high population density. Checking, it became pretty apparent what the problem was - NS just never got in the mood with one another. Their mating pheromone levels and sex drive were consistently at zero no matter what or how close they got. A total flatline.

I don't know much about how Norn brains work yet, but as a person who is totally into that stuff IRL, I eagerly got into biochemistry and genetics of these Norns, hoping to create a more newbie-friendly breed that got into it better! Essentially I worked on giving the Norns a natural sex drive dependent on hormone levels in particular.
I have achieved this purpose and lost for a different reason - Subterras seem to hardly perceive each other at all. Even at high sex drive levels, they only kisspop if efficiently instructed to or if they are incredibly used to the other Norn. Matter of fact ALL kisspops (failed, I might add) of Subterras [and the failed Subterra derivative I created] in my games only happened between Norns that were hatched next to each other at roughly the same time and known each other since childhood for most of their lives - it's like Norns that are strangers don't even register no matter how high the duo's sex drive is or how much pheromones are injected into participants! I simply had to give up when I placed both of the test Norns inside a small space and they exclaimed how 'intensely friendly' both were but appeared to be far more interested in wallbonking than they were in each other.

So I turned my attention to another breed that highly interested me, the less-known Kannovas. An author created a breed with some of the brain lobes of both Cannys and Nova Subterras, and while it was only experimental reportedly they are quite viable, can survive without excess stupidty and what interested me the most their children with Canny Norns actually survive and retain Canny brain lobes.



This project is twofold :
- Create a set of eggs of altered Kannova breed with different base non-mutated 'models' (original Kannovas are only Spotted or however the non-Emerald non-Pixie base breed is called).
- Incorporate my work from failed Nova Subterra experiment to create a second, altered breed with alternative sex drive mechanisms.




Changes to the regular breed :
- They gained heavy metal resistance (Not immunity!). This breed slowly metabolizes Heavy Metals into Pain and Tiredness if unprompted (activated in adolescence), and if they have enough Aminoacids they are able to slowly metabolize EDTA for themselves (activated in youth, result 5 Heavy Metal + 2 Aminoacid = 5 HM + 1 EDTA per 5 seconds.) I was already succesful in this, but only tested the resistance with metal injections and never brought them to the volcano itself to calibrate how well they survive this. The popular Bony Grendel genome handled that differently becoming effectively immune to the volcano.

- They gain additional family instincts : No Child+Parent breeding (doesn't affect siblings), different reactions to pats and slaps from siblings and parents. The genes display successfully in the game but they remain untested as I didn't know Kannova have a longer lifespan. The biggest risks are that the breed will be rendered completely asexual from occaisonal child-parent interactions (or, conversely, they won't be efficient enough), and that the breed will feel absolutely no pain from being slapped by siblings. The genes are confirmed as working in both cases. Sibling-related genes were immensely effective at killing loneliness and boredom so they've been weakened.

- A gentle anti-wallbonking set of 2 genes remniscient of what was put in an altered Canny breed that reportedly doesn't wallbonk. This breed receives reward if they retreat from a wall once bumping into it and receive (less) punishment if they approach a wall when already near it. So far, it has worked, but the Norns are still fairly young so accumulation of bonus reward and punishment may lead to OHSS, still. // Update : Norns develop wallbonking issues if they're kept in pairs or larger groups within a small area for a long time (2 norns in the 'upper' incubator area seems to strike them with wallbonking and general OHSS after 30-60 minutes spend cramped together there once they enter childhood; any open area or closed area as large or larger than the bottom incubator room seems to never create these problems).

- As I mentioned, Kannovas can reportedly breed with Cannys in an efficient manner without the bugs and deaths associated with Canny-regular and Canny-Nova Subterra crossbreeding. I'd like to see if the changes I made can also be bred into Canny lines. // Only feature remaining completely untested.

Changes (partially tested) to the altered breed :
- Low-level constant sex drive above certain ages. HEAVILY dependent on cholesterol, and less so, fat accessible to the Norn.
- Lowered sex drive gains from interaction.
- Testosterone and LH have a role in both males and females.
- Lower fertility of males in Adolescent stage. Higher from Youth+ stage.
- Fertility dependent on cholesterol and fat accessible.
- Heavily altered cholesterol metabolism (More efficient, but more is consumed in fertility-related processes). This may need more calibration.
- Effectively, whether or not those Norns breed depends on how much fat-rich food is accessible!
- All the changes present in the regular breed.

I have created a ----> Trello board <----for this project.


If anyone would like to help me test the heavily-altered breed, I'll leave a Google Drive download below. Their life has been shortened to the regular rate of aging to help with testing. I'll also leave downloads for the regular breed in there once I am certain the genes meant for it inherit, work in a manageable way, and I have created the eggs and genome for all three traditional models.

----> Download folder<----- // Now also includes separate folders for late-prototype Regular breeds!

Any comments, suggestions, questions, and warnings are welcome!

If you're interested in testing things out with this, I can give pointers on what to look out for.

Update : The family-instincts work and are inheritable. This means I only need to finish calibrating them and the Heavy Metal resistance, and then make a good set of official breed-based eggs, for the base version to be 'finished' in terms of a playable prototype.

Update 2 : I'm uploading a second prototype version of the altered breed. The first prototype was 'manageable', but certain aspects hit males too hard and females were let off too easily. This should alter the issue somewhat. Big hints : Males become much more viable in terms of fertility at 'Youth" than they are as "Adolescents", and the anti-wallbonking script performs decently enough as long as you don't raise or keep two Norns for prolonged periods inside a very small area. To put things in perspective :
- The bottom room of the incubator seems to be the minimum for two norns.
- Keeping two Norns for over 1 hours together inside the upper room of the incubator area hit them with religious wallbonking and much of other aspects of OHSS. Conversely, a 2nd generation male only taught by his mother over an open area performs well as far as survival goes if there's food nearby.


Update 3:
- The 'Standard' breed reached the final phase, so I'm uploading the versions for each 'standard' Norn breed as far as the regular Norn versions go. Two problems I seem to have is that I am not certain whether or not there's any specific action in coding Instincts that means a separate 'petting' action for Norns (Activate Norn 1 seems to be kisspop, whle Activate Norn 2 is definitely a simple kiss), and that my color alterations did not seem to affect the norns as I wanted, at least for Generation 1 Norns.
- The standard breed only differs from regular Kannovas in the additional anti-wall and anti-state need mechanisms, both fairly light and subtle, in family mechanisms and instincts I've added, Pigment and Pigment Bleed genes, and in additional resistance to Heavy Metals. All the other work was already present in regular Kannova breed. Kannovas were created by Ettina as an attempt to mix Nova Subterras by LummoxJR and Canny Norns by Chris Double and Lis Morris. Other than mentioned alterations, all credit goes to these people.
- In the regular breed, family mechanisms have been lowered in terms of effects - presence of a sibling alone should no longer absolutely kill any boredom a Norn has in a matter of two seconds, although it's still very effective!
Last edited by Venithil on Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:58 pm, edited 7 times in total.
One day, all the weird mutant Norns, Ettins, and Grendels shall make themselves an X-Albians movie.
If you'd like to read a blog-style story of my Creatures playthroughs (including struggles with Creatures 2' "Smart" breeds [Canny, N. Subterra, Kannova], and my own genome) click Here!

If you'd like to check and download my work with the Kannova genome, click here!

Malkin
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Re: New Crossable(-ish) Breed(s) [C2]

Postby Malkin » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:27 pm

Wow, sounds very interesting! Particularly your theory about how important other norns are to Nova Subterras - the classic problem is that creatures are too interested in each other! Have you had a look at JayD's Cannies? They seem to be enjoying a resurgence in popularity at present, due to their anti-wallbonking edits.

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Venithil
Busy Bee
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:25 am
Country: Europe
Currently Playing: C2
Favorite Species: Norn

Re: New Crossable(-ish) Breed(s) [C2]

Postby Venithil » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:05 pm

My original plan was to make a play (and document it -that I did, somewhat successfully.) that involved participants from the three main 'Smarter Norn" groups I identified (Nova Subterra, Kannova, and Canny) Norns. It just so happened that the first patch of Subterras I hatched made me notice these issues and got me into Norn genetics.

I actually took a look at JayD's altered genome to check the anti-wallbonking measures he used, but it seemed fairly simple outside of the direct brain lobe modifications (I don't know if he did any of those) of which I know nothing yet - he added an instinct that rewarded Norns when they moved away from a wall after hitting it. I used something similar here!

As far as playing with the Canny Norns is concerned, well - today I returned to playing the world I intended to house these various smart Norns, and both my Grendel and my Kannova Norn have been well raised and taught by now. Sadly, I also had two deaths, including my favorite Norn, Aine, passing away from old age ('only' 5 hours and 20 minutes for a Nova Subterra). This does leave me room to start playing with versions based on the Canny genome that I obtained the next time I have the time and will to play.

I'm thinking about posting the reports / logs of my playthrough either on some blog or somewhere here in the forums. Won't do me much good to be inspired by Jessica's blog if all these do is sit on my hard drive.

And yeah, I was fairly surprised at how completely antisocial the Subterras were. Their attitudes generally varied from simply living alongside any other Norns in the vicinity with minimal to no interaction, and straight-up avoiding companionship.

It's like other Norns are Italian and French while Subterras are Norwegian and Finnish.
One day, all the weird mutant Norns, Ettins, and Grendels shall make themselves an X-Albians movie.
If you'd like to read a blog-style story of my Creatures playthroughs (including struggles with Creatures 2' "Smart" breeds [Canny, N. Subterra, Kannova], and my own genome) click Here!

If you'd like to check and download my work with the Kannova genome, click here!

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Venithil
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Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:25 am
Country: Europe
Currently Playing: C2
Favorite Species: Norn

Re: New Crossable(-ish) Breed(s) [C2]

Postby Venithil » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:32 pm

Progress update !

Altered breed is very hard to properly finish. I did create a breed that was viable, but their fertility was almost independent of cholesterol and fat consumed (Which is the whole purpose of this breed), so I had to try again. The currently downloadable 'altered' breed is the viable but not intended one.

I also successfully achieved (in-game) a crossbreed between the Regular version of this breed and a Norn based on the Canny genome! (specifically)
Opposite of the Kannova's creator, who carried out a similar experiment and got a perfectly Canny brain, the child had Kannova brain lobes. It's apparently equally likely that the child will inherit the lobe-set of either parent, or I might've been lucky. She appears to be perfectly viable. Many instincts related to family were inherited, but not all, and regrettably the 'Natural Heavy Metal Resistance" gene was not passed in this case - it is worth noting her father was a 2nd generation, however, and might've lost some genes himself. She seems perfectly capable of staying alive, however! She successfully learned basic words before I sent her away to test the 4th prototype of the altered breed.

On the other hand, I also noticed a *debilitating* flaw when mixing the regular and Altered Breeds, but it might be a 'regular' cut-type mutation in genetics : A child of Regular and Altered breed (I think it was the 2nd or 3rd prototype) lost the Sleeping stimulus. This essentially meant the Norn did get sleepiness, and had the instinct to sleep, but didn't benefit whatsoever from sleeping - essentially they'd be in a coma unless treated with Sleepiness Decrease injections.


PROGRESS UPDATE 2 :
I think Altered Breed should be stable and viable now. The modification has been uploaded with sets of eggs for every basic Norn type. Things of note :
- The breed has a relatively unique lifespan (242 initial Life concentration with 'Half-life' equal to Desert Norn and other long-lived breeds), with a higher than usual chance of initial Life concentration mutation (151 instead of 128). Life expectancy for the first generation as such is 607 minutes (as Golden Desert Norn's seems to be 10 hours, 40 minutes), because it was a linear decrease rather than half-life alteration.

- Regrettably, I haven't tested Norn intelligence after such a long lifespan. Should they appear to get too dumb late in life, return to 'traditional' Norn lifespan length might be preferred.

- At Youth life stage, problems with fertility in both genders should significantly decrease thanks to a now more viable mechanism of LH-to-gender hormone conversion. A regular Norn female has a fertile period of 95-100 seconds before she has to wait for the new cycle, a well-fed female Altered Breed of this breed is fertile for roughly 2 minutes. Females (Youth+) experience a relatively rapid increase in sex drive just before they become fertile as long as their testosterone is high enough. As long as a fertile male is in proximity this should allow for 2-3 kisspops to occur during the fertile window, without injections, while regular window seemed to only support 1-2 kisspops.

- Males previously retained mid-level fertility even at adolescence when there wasn't much fat to be eaten at risk of falling unconscious because of low fatty acid levels; this was overhauled and they should be healthier now.

- Family instinct genes inherit in some form even in crosses. It is possible to achieve a viable cross with another breed, but there's risk of some metabolic problems, and deletions of genes that can be deleted appear more frequent because of high number of genes in the altered breed. However, occasionally a very healthy Norn can emerge!

- Crosses with Canny-type Norns for both breeds confirmed viable. Generally, children are split between Canny brain lobes and Kannova brain lobes. With regular breed, no children of such crosses showed any debilitating mutations or deletions of genes; all such offspring survived birth and childhood. Crossing with a Nova Subterra couldn't be carried out because... Well, because they're Nova Subterra.

- Wallbonking still occurs in certain areas or when in excessive company over a small area, but it seems I successfully decreased it for smaller populations as well as broad areas. Electric gates are still a major issue so I suggest avoiding them if possible.

- Pregnancy, childbirth, and mating are now lighter on the Altered Breed, although it's not a massive difference.

- When crossbred, these Norns displayed a full array of colors, but for some reason regular Norns still usually only have 1 set of colors for males and 1 for females per breed type. This was a trait shared with Kannovas and Nova Subterras, it seems.

- At Youth+ life stages, the resistance to volcano appears to render it nigh-impossible for these Norns to get any serious bone damage, although they do get tired and get some pain from being near radiation. Injections of high concentrations of heavy metals still can damage their bones but are also metabolized.


Update : Life expectancy.
The altered breed has a slower life chemical half-life and a little less starting Life compared to other breeds (242 vs 255). So far, it appears the altered breed ages from baby to child at 13-14 minutes and to adolescent around 55th minute.

Update :
This is one of the last updates as I'll be getting very busy soon, but hopefully the time I have will be enough! I identified the issue with anti-wallbumping instincts in both breeds and improved them quite a bit, tested in practice. Even in enclosed spaces the test Norn avoided it quite well now. Turns out if you state this sort of instinct wrong within options given, a creature may misinterpret things and start perceiving THEMSELVES as the trouble, rather than the wall, and attempt to commit all manners of actions on their own little form (obviously doomed to fail), which often leads to what I referred to as 'religious' wallbumping. Altering the chemicals involved, the sort of stimulus that affects the reward, and the time at which specific instincts kick in creates a well-balanced set!

I was dissatisfied with how little food had to do with fertility in the currently uploaded altered breed, so I continued to tweak things around. While I have to alter the sex drive mechanics still, if only a little bit (I think I might just increase the sex drive half-life), the male Norns *can* actually lose fertility from not being well-fed enough, if rarely so. The female Norns may miss fertility periods if not fed fat-rich food, but their fertility periods are much longer now. Adipose tissue in females have now been included in these mechanisms, as they've been accumulating it somewhat fast in previous breeds (males consumed enough cholesterol to always need to break down their A.T.). Glycogen reserves now play a role in females beyond Youth age, helping stabilize fertility in them. Norns also gain very small amounts of fertility - related hormones just from eating, no matter what it is they eat! All in all, I think this should work as intended now. I'll try to upload the new versions of both breeds a.s.a.p., and I'll make a new post when done.

Also, ages have been altered for the altered breed and the same mechanism may be implemented in a regular one. Previously, they aged to Child after 13 minutes, Adolescent after 55 and Youth after 85. All stages from Youth up have been delayed a little.
One day, all the weird mutant Norns, Ettins, and Grendels shall make themselves an X-Albians movie.
If you'd like to read a blog-style story of my Creatures playthroughs (including struggles with Creatures 2' "Smart" breeds [Canny, N. Subterra, Kannova], and my own genome) click Here!

If you'd like to check and download my work with the Kannova genome, click here!

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Venithil
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Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:25 am
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Currently Playing: C2
Favorite Species: Norn

Re: New(-ish) Crossable Breed(s) [C2] (Final download update)

Postby Venithil » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:27 pm

It would appear after severe testing and lots of calibrations, we're pretty much done here! Females of the Altered Breed were the biggest issue in trying to get to work the way I wanted, but the final testing has confirmed they do seem both viable and working as intended, although as always in these cases experiences may vary! Some serious alterations were made to ensure playability.


You can download them at the old link or get directly to the final breed version -->here<--.

Final list of alterations, with comments :

Both breeds :
- Both breeds include a quite thorough list of family-related instincts. The only use Creatures 2 was getting out of its Norns' ability to recognize parents and siblings was that children felt more crowded in the presence of parents once they became of age. These breeds change that! Parents and children are now very unlikely to mate with one another because of variety of chemical and instict/stimuli-driven mechanisms. All of those are inheritable, are not normally able to be cut, and have very low mutation chance. All of the instincts were passed to every 2nd generation hybrid with Canny norns I've attempted to make.

- This means these Norns will also not breed in the presence of their parents or children, at least not easily.

- Siblings are unaffected by the mating limitations, so it's possible to produce a Norn population from only 2-3 initial Norns. They do recognize siblings now and gain benefits from their proximity (they feel much less bored and lonely), as well as interacting with them positively and negatively.

- Do note that these may not affect half-siblings, and will not affect cousins, aunts, uncles, etc.

- I've worked on and improved their anti wallbonking instincts! Fast-aging test specimen didn't wallbonk in relatively confined species until at the very least 75 minutes of life (I didn't have the time to do any further testing on them). This is governed by 4 genes : An altered 'Bumped' stimuli gene that causes more pain and immediately punishes creature for wallbonking, activated at birth, a milder version of JayD's anti-wallbonking gene, activated at adolescence, and two genes of my own creation. JayD's version is reportedly very effective in Canny brains, but for some reason it had dreadful consequences in Kannova brains when I replicated it; even with comparatively much lower reward, Norns could become obsessed with bonking into a wall and then retreating from them. If they didn't stop soon enough, they started perceiving *themselves* as the source of the increasing pain and attempted actions on themselves in relation to that pain (Words like "Felicia stop Felicia" and "Saffronia hit Saffronia" were frequently uttered). This ailment affected females in particular, for unknown reasons. With the new set of genes, no such problems occured, and they seem to also have some effectiveness against electric gates, though only one test with those was attempted. With the exception of the first gene, those are neither able to mutate no prone to being cut. If you intend to play with the regular breed, please download the new version, as their anti-wallbonking seems to have improved immensely compared to the occasional turn to religious wallbonking in the past.

- The breed cannot have their bones seriously damaged by the 'vanilla' volcano, as proven by testing. They lose mild amounts of aminoacids and gain pain and tiredness as a result of that resistance. These genes are activated in youth and adolescence, respectively. Accidental injections of heavy metals (or calculated, for Norn sadists and testers) will damage their bones, but can be metabolized down to nothing without any EDTA injections. They're not particularly resistant to any other toxin.

- They're a little less prone to having high Need for Pleasure. Normally, 3 units of NFP Increase give 3 units of NFP and 1 unit of Punishment per 0.4 seconds. For (workname) Kannova Venterras, 3 units of NFP Increase metabolize to 2 units of NFP and 1 unit of Punishment every 3 seconds. Furthermore, 2 units of NFP Decrease react with 3 units of NFP. What this means is that they should generally be less depressed if left to their own devices.

-Both breeds have unique lifespan traits. They have less starting Life chemical in 1st generations (242 as opposed to 255). They lose it at the same rate as Golden Desert & other long-lived Norns, but have a higher chance of mutations in their starting Life chemical. 1st generation reaches Childhood at 13 minutes old, adolescence at 55 minutes old, and should take 1 hour 30 minutes, roughly, to reach Youth. Approximate life expectancy is 607 minutes (10 hours, 7 minutes), but it can vary.


Crossbreeding?
- Same as with Kannova norns, these Norns have a good chance of creating viable offspring with Canny Norns, at least their pre-Akamai incarnation. Brain lobes seem to have a 50/50 chance to be inherited from either parent (Kannovas have additional brain lobes derived from Nova Subterra). In theory, Nova Subterra should also be able to do that, but 'vanilla' breeding attempts were unsuccessful.
An Altered Breed female was throwing herself at a NS male and actually kisspopping him, but only her sex drive was decreasing, which makes me think there's something SERIOUSLY wrong with Subterras and their norn-to-norn interactions. Their creator did an amazing job at making them smart, but something was lost about their sociability in the long run.
- Altered breed has a lot of metabolic alterations and a tremendous number of genes. While healthy crossbreeds have been obtained, this often leads to cutting some of these genes, or genes that can be cut in general. A 3rd generation child that was an offspring of an Altered Breed and a Regular Breed - Canny Norn hybrid actually lost the sleeping stimuli - he fell asleep, but received no benefits. I thus recommend that if you intend to crossbreed the Altered Breed with anything you should be ready for more problems, and a good idea might be to introduce such potential mates that crossbreeds don't dominate the population. I didn't get many crossbred offspring in general, but Canny - Regular Breed offspring seemed to always be healthy enough to survive.

Altered Breed only :

- Finally working as intended, the Altered Breed won't become fertile without a sufficient source of fat in vicinity. This is particularly true for females and adolescent males.

- Cholesterol is crucial for these Norns, but they gain it more efficiently. Any food that undergoes full 'fat' metabolism path will suply them with bonus cholesterol. Examples of good foods for them include Meat Vines by GimmeCat, altered Cheese variants (the Cheese Plate by Monika Darwin, for example), and seafood vendors by Monika Darwin. They can easily survive on other food, but they won't retain fertility. Out of vanilla foods, Mushrooms are a humble but decent fat source. I did have some time to check the balance of this metabolism and it seems to be working fine. If cholesterol is lacking, females can substitute by eating up on some of their food reserves. This counters the accumulation of adipose tissue, allowing them to avoid heart problems. (Do note only high Adipose Tissue affects the heart; cholesterol levels don't change it).

- Both genders now produce LH and testosterone. Testosterone serves to boost sex drive in females when fertile; LH serves to improve testosterone production in males. Genes to metabolize those kick in at youth, stabilizing their fertility more.

- Actually eating gives trace amount of hormones to these Norns, no matter the food source. This can help give the final push to an infertile Norn after Youth age, as LH is partially metabolized to prolong fertility.

- They gain sex drive slower and less efficiently from Norn proximity, but have a natural sex-drive inducing mechanisms. Female will receive a spike in sex drive just before they become fertile through consumption of testosterone in presence of oestrogen. Males will mantain low (adolescence) to mid (Youth+) sex drive naturally for as long as they have the testosterone and cholesterol to keep it going.

- Both mating and pregnancy are easier on the Altered breed. Egglaying should be mildly easier, too.

Some Ado About Females :
- A female gains a spike in sex drive BEFORE she becomes fertile and loses a little bit of it by the time she is fertile. These genes could be altered to change that corellation, but I decided to keep them as they are so that females in the presence of family wouldn't accidentally try to breed with their sons or fathers.
- Females are less stable with their fertility than males. However, a well-fed female can become *very* fertile. Several chemicals now aid in producing oestrogen, including LH, adipose tissue, fatty acids, triglyceride, and glycogen. These activate in order; adolescent females are least fertile and can burn their adipose tissue to aid with maintaining fertility. Youth+ females become fertile much more easily.
- If left without a cholesterol source, a female will continue producing Oestrogen fairlyefficiently until she burns out her fatty acids and adipose tissue, by which time she'll be rendered infertile. A Youth+ female can recover from this state and gain fertility periods similar to the original ones (rougly 80 seconds), by feeding on fat-containing foods alone.
- A well fed female at youth+ age can have fertile periods for up to 3.5 minutes long. Because this is primarily maintained by LH levels, it's fairly safe to her.
- Youth + females have one danger, though : In the presence of triglyceride, mild amounts of glycogen are actually consumed to help maintain fertility. This is a very slow process (half-life 10 minutes, I believe; reaction 14 glycogen + 1 Triglyceride --> 13 glycogen +5 oestrogen) that doesn't affect females that are well-fed or females that are kept intentionally infertile as they don't gain triglyceride easily, so they are stable. If a female deprived of cholesterol, fatty acids, and adipose tissue was to gain a big influx of triglyceride for any reason, however, it'd become a serious danger to her health. The only way to do this would be through injections or food that contain no fat but do contain triglyceride.

A note about males :
- Males will lose fertility if they have no source of cholesterol, but if they're fertile when they hit Youth, they become very stable in their fertility.
- Part of natural male sex drive is metabolisation of cholesterol and dehydrogenase into mating pheromone. They gain enough dehydrogenase that this happens naturally, but I never tested it with them drinking alcohol. There's a good chance alcohol will either decrease sex drive with males or actually spike it up. Females gain smaller amount of dehydrogenase as well, making drinking a little easier on them.

I did enough testing to believe this breed is viable to play, but I will keep making alterations if anyone has serious complaints!


Credits :
- Ettina for Kannova Norns. Regular Breed is basically Kannova Norns with a little less NFP, heavy metal resistance, and family instincts.
- LummoxJR for Nova Subterras, who were the biggest inspiration for this breed and the original basis for the metabolic alterations.
- Chris Double and Lis Morris for the original Cannies.
- JayD for inspiring the anti-wallbonking genes.



Final update :
As was my fear when not all of the breed's aspect could've been tested, there was still need to tune and change the Altered Breed a bit. Sorry about that! Regrettably, the previous idea wasn't fully implemented in all genomes, likely the question of me being sleepy when I saved them, and furthermore it still had some flaws. First of all, male sex drive didn't work as intended and they were almost impossible to get to kisspop, and their stability didn't work correctly, either. Second of all, females had a tendency to collapse because of nutrients being drained too fast and no adipose tissue to fall back on (it consumed itself too quickly). As a result, I had to modify the idea for the final time. The current breed was playtested in shorter-lived versions for a lot of time today and yesterday and I actually started a playthrough with the altered breed today. It should work now. I apologize for the problems; altering the metabolism took a lot of calibrations, and male sex drive seemed to either be so low it was almost nonexistent, or shooting up so high that they were obsessed with kisspopping and saying how friendly they feel. The latest prototype was a lot more stable than before.

- Males are more likely to lose fertility now at adolescence than they are at youth, as intended.

- Females should no longer collapse from lack of nutrients. All of the processes draining their food reserves were slowed down significantly and altered.

- Females can still skip fertility periods at adolescence without becoming fertile, but become fertile much more easily; when oestrogen hits its highest level without becoming fertile, several starch-only meals will still be sufficient to make it so. If a female has undigested protein and adipose tissue in her system, she synthesizes a big push of oestrogen from those, at a very slow pace which only eats up her reserves in the long term rather than fairly quickly. So, protein can also be the final shot guaranteeing a female's fertility now, assuming she has adipose tissue. A lot of food containing fat contains protein as well, so nothing changed in dietary requirements.

- Youth+ Females will generally almost always become fertile, but if they have triglyceride and protein in their system before they hit the fertile period, their fertility will last longer. Adolescent fertile periods are very much in line with a regular Norn's (roughly 80 seconds). Youth + Females can have 1-2.5 minutes long fertile periods, possibly longer if she eats enough during the period.

- Sex drive has been rehashed. Norns now gain reasonable rather than minimal sex drive in the presence of another Norn. Male sex drive also actually works; a side effect of this is that females get to keep 20-30% concentration of dehydrogenase in their system, making them a little more alcohol-resistant naturally.

- The short-lived test subjects managed to breed twice, both when well-fed and slightly nutrient-deprived, once hitting youth stage over a relatively short time period.

- Male Norns at Youth+ levels are now rather stable in terms of testosterone levels. Higher testosterone levels also mean more natural sex drive. There's a drawback in that occasionally the Norn will lose 40 or so percent of their fertility when sex drive spikes because of another Norn's presence, but it's only momentary (1-2 seconds). In testing they were almost impossible to make them fall below levels for viable fertility once they hit youth age.

TL : DR verison
- Fertility easier obtained.
- Male sex drive works.
- Norns become friendly more quickly in the presence of other Norns compared to previous version.
- Downloads already updated.
- Thing shave generally improved in stability at the mild cost of the idea itself.
- Protein now has a mild influence on fertility, too, thus completing the whole combo of nutrient sets influencing female fertility.

Download the new altered breed version if you're going to play the altered metabolism game. This is the last update for likely weeks to months, although I do believe the breed to actually be finished now.

And wait, there's more updates :

- I've taken down the Altered Breed. There was a terrible metabolic flaw that only manifested in long-lived males that came up in the testing. I think I corrected this flaw, but there were also many small, unwanted differences between the genomes that the D-DNA analyzer revealed.
- I'll also use the D-DNA Analyzer to compare the regular breeds to one another.
- The newest versions will be uploaded tomorrow, upon which I won't be able to do any more updates for several weeks even if something doesn't seem to be working right.
One day, all the weird mutant Norns, Ettins, and Grendels shall make themselves an X-Albians movie.
If you'd like to read a blog-style story of my Creatures playthroughs (including struggles with Creatures 2' "Smart" breeds [Canny, N. Subterra, Kannova], and my own genome) click Here!

If you'd like to check and download my work with the Kannova genome, click here!

Malkin
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Re: New(-ish) Crossable Breed(s) [C2] (Final download update)

Postby Malkin » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:18 pm

Would it be worth looking at the 306 genome for some further ideas?

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Venithil
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Re: New(-ish) Crossable Breed(s) [C2] (Final download update)

Postby Venithil » Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:24 pm

I took a look at it. It's encouraging to see someone also managed to alter the genome on a metabolic level and actually succeeded! However, this person's answer to the metabolic problem of how-to-handle-cholesterol was to cut the middle man, bile acid. While it would work for the male side of the problem I've had (Males that were so long-lived simply didn't retain enough bile acid to be stable, and couldn't properly break down the nutrients they've obtained, which translated to no cholesterol, which translated to no fertility), it'd essentially waste all the micromanaging work I've done on females so far.

It doesn't matter anyhow because I've managed to make it work. I edited the in-game genetics of a young Norn before they've hit Adolescence stage and confirmed that at the age they have the current build is stable; this experience also caused me to realize females could end up being in similar trouble, so now both genders in altered breed receive free bile acid if their hunger levels are enough (meaning starved Norns will be able to quickly restore their metabolism when fed). All of the minor accidental differences between breeds have been corrected; now Hebe, Emerald, and Pixie norns within a specific breed only differ in pigment genes and appearance genes.

Females were also tested with the mildly altered metabolism; they still perform as intended and in fact the newly modified pair in my world just produced an egg. The final change was to make sure the breed didn't suffer from too high risk of heart attacks, I think the final added gene will take care of that well. As the half-time of the reaction is 5 hours, it means the effect it has on the Norn metabolism should be very subtle, but it'll end up lowering their Adipose Tissue over time, which combats their need to consume this much fatty foods.

So basically there's nothing more I can do other than micromanaging whether or not the breed can work more the way I wanted it to, but it already works fairly well. It's been reuploaded, along with eggs.


Some final hints on taking care of them :
- I don't know if it's the way I raise Norns or not that affects this, but there was a certain thing compared to my playthrough with Nova Subterra. Kannova brains seem to have a higher chance of 'lunacy', in a way, so try to check if your norns sleep correctly when they fall asleep. My norns were split into 3 groups - ones that slept well, ones that took extremely short powernaps that weren't very effective, and ones that had lunacy issues i.e. moving around when asleep or attempting to do different actions. This is the issue with Kannova brains themselves OR the way I raise Norns, not the breed itself; checking if your Norn is sleeping correctly in the neuroscience kit and delivering small doses of punishment when it seems to be a 'lunatic' can make all Norns sleep well. They actually do lay down to sleep fairly often, and some are good sleepers. In my experience, all of them are actually less sleepy than regular Norns end up being after they're introduced to other Norns.

- The first generation Norns tend to be treated by the game as siblings; therefore, the first generation of both breeds will likely receive all the benefits of sibling instincts. To some Norns, this means they may become more slap-happy, as slapping their siblings satisfies some of their mental needs (it lowers boredom significantly). On the plus side, the slapped Norn becomes less bored and sleepy as well. They can still be perfectly friendly with one another as a whole lot of sibling-related interactions inspire friendly relationships. This doesn't affect breeding mechanisms, in fact certain Norns may be more likely to hang around other Norns just for these benefits.

- This means that if your Norn is really bored, Norns that are its siblings, or other norns of the 1st generation for 1st generation Norns, are likely to take care of that need pretty well.

- Most of the instinct and stimuli genes cannot be cut and have low mutability, which means you can breed them into other Norns.

- In the altered breed, metabolic genes have a very low mutation chance, so later-generation Norns may perform a little differently. This is true for all Norns, of course, as sometimes a crucial metabolic gene can even be cut; I tried to make sure the mutation possibility was there,


All the downloads are up, and this work is officially over. Unless I notice the anti heart attack gene works too drastically or someone actively complaints, these will remain unaltered now. Happy playing, assuming anyone will want to play these!
One day, all the weird mutant Norns, Ettins, and Grendels shall make themselves an X-Albians movie.
If you'd like to read a blog-style story of my Creatures playthroughs (including struggles with Creatures 2' "Smart" breeds [Canny, N. Subterra, Kannova], and my own genome) click Here!

If you'd like to check and download my work with the Kannova genome, click here!

Malkin
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Re: New(-ish) Crossable Breed(s) [C2] (Final download update)

Postby Malkin » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:43 pm

Could you please describe 'lunacy' in more depth? How can you tell a healthy sleep from an unhealthy sleep?

I just noticed that in your first document, you've credited me with creating the bilberry bush - Lis Morris actually created that, and I only uploaded it to Creatures Caves.

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Venithil
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Re: New(-ish) Crossable Breed(s) [C2] (Final download update)

Postby Venithil » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:16 am

I probably made a couple mistakes crediting the uploader like that... I will have to check for these next time I have a moment to read through.

As far as 'lunacy' goes, it takes two forms. I am unsure if regular Norns had a similar sleep problem :

1) A Norn will fall asleep upon having a high enough sleep drive, but they will still move in place and possibly attempt actions. As far as I can tell, this doesn't give them any benefits of sleeping.

2) this one is more secretive. A Norn will properly lay down sleeping, but their brain is syill attempting to do actions n the meantime. The Neruoscience kit will show it in the decision panel where other actions than Rest can be highlighted and gain probability of being chosen. As far as I could tell the Norn only rrceived sleeping benefits when Rest was the top action. Checking for this requires the neuroscience kit. I generally healed this problem with small doses of punishment.

Do note the problem, like many in Creatures 2, might have been caused by my habit od rewarding Norns for sleeping during ans right after it.

Sorry for any minor mistakes, writing from my cellphone while on a train.
One day, all the weird mutant Norns, Ettins, and Grendels shall make themselves an X-Albians movie.
If you'd like to read a blog-style story of my Creatures playthroughs (including struggles with Creatures 2' "Smart" breeds [Canny, N. Subterra, Kannova], and my own genome) click Here!

If you'd like to check and download my work with the Kannova genome, click here!

Malkin
Everyday Egg
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:28 pm

Re: New(-ish) Crossable Breed(s) [C2] (Final download update)

Postby Malkin » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:29 pm

Thanks - I just didn't want to take credit where it wasn't due. :)

That's interesting - if I saw a norn attempting to do another action while it was sleeping, I would assume it was dreaming - creatures run through their instincts while they're deeply asleep and learn from them.


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